How to be unconvincing
A reader sent me this last Tuesday and I promised to post something about it. Better late than never, I guess.
Are you, too, lost in a dark wood spiritually? If not, here are a number of wonderful stories telling you how you could be if you only tried a little harder. Remember, as Rod has told us over and over, stories are the way to really get your cultural marketing across.
And now, successfully lost lamb, are you ready to be found? The Great One is there to help with another, even more powerful dream story. But what's this?
I had enough self-awareness to know that it was impossible for me to read these books lucidly. The cloud of darkness around me was like stinging flies. What I recall learning from all that was that the Catholic case for Roman primacy was not nearly as airtight as I had believed. I had only seriously considered the Roman claim versus Protestant claims. Orthodoxy was a new thing.
Well, Pilgrim, are you gonna keep trying to get the Devil out of those filthy spiritual clothes over and over with that tired old lard-based soap and a rock, or are you going to try new, improved Orthodoxy the way your Dream Teacher has just laid out for you?
Tax-deductible, of course.
Another reader on the sender's email list then delivered this opinion:
Actually, I wouldn’t mind his far-fetched dream-state Orthodoxy stories so much if he focused on the blessings that Orthodoxy has brought to him. But he simply can’t do that except by comparison to the mean old not-as-important-as-it-thinks Roman Catholic Church (“Did you hear about the Scandal? Huh? Huh?”).
And I find it interesting that the Story of The Great Conversion continues to change over time, just like The Day That Rod Was There. It’s always something new, which means what we’ve been told previously (as well as now) is as likely to be false as true.
I see it just as click-bait. What better way to harvest comments by throwing out FOUR threads for people to bash and tout various faiths.
Here's my initial email response:
I likewise find the lack of focus on Orthodoxy qua Orthodoxy in his writing telling. It’s always “Orthodoxy for the doubting and/or disaffected Catholic”. But there is something else missing. Any kind of serious intellectual apologetic effort. He writes:
....Orthodoxy was a new thing. The Orthodox arguments were making some headway with me, but they were far from a slam-dunk, at least with me. What they did was loosen my confidence in the solidity of the Catholic claim. Yet I was highly aware that my own mental and emotional state was inflamed by anger and distrust, such that I was not sure to what extent my deliberations could be trusted.
What is missing is the details on these Orthodox arguments. The only thing we get is “What they did was loosen my confidence in the solidity of the Catholic claim,” so again, his Orthodoxy is relative to the Catholic faith. It isn’t the Eastern Orthodox Church’s/Churches’ claim to positive moral authority, it’s the negative claim against the Catholic Church. And he never even allows us a peek at those. Instead we get a full 15-minutes of exciting dream-footage in technicolor with spiders and magic prayer ropes.
Those were my initial musings, but I'll expound on them here.
Say a person just became a serious Christian and decided he really wanted to follow Christ's teachings. So he decided to study the claims of the ancient Christian communions. He'd heard that there is a blogger who writes prolifically about his conversion out of one ancient Christian communion (Roman Catholic) into another (Eastern Orthodox). So he decided to check out some of these many posts to discover why.
I don't think this person would find any advice for his own spiritual journey from this blogger named Rod Dreher who, by the way, really does write prolifically about his conversion out of Roman Catholicism. He'd learn that the blogger left the Catholic church over horrible abuse scandals which, the blogger doesn't deny, also exist in his current orthodox communion. He'd also learn that the blogger also left over the sometimes horrible mishandling of the scandals, but that the blogger admits that this mishandling sometimes happens in his present communion.
Not only is there not much of an effort at intellectual apologetics for Orthodoxy, but there isn't really any reference to an outside source for said apologetics which were "making some headway" with him *. I think that the this lacuna is possibly intentional for two reasons. The first is that for Rod Dreher, intellectual effort is completely unnecessary—you either get it or you don't. I think that in this case, prattling on ceaselessly about it is sort of pointless so I don't know why he would bother. But smug people doubling down on smugness quite often should surprise no one who has any worldly experience.
The second reason, and one which is more likely to my mind, is that any intellectual argument for Orthodoxy over Catholicism would present a vulnerable target. If regular readers here attack Rod Dreher's decision to leave the Catholic Church it is very easy for Dreher's defenders to dismiss us by saying "You just don't like him." Fair enough; we don't. But by not presenting foundational absolutes or general principles for why he left the Catholic church, his choice to do so comes across as individualistic, relativistic and circumstantial. He might have presented the idea elsewhere that the small and the particular are virtuous attributes, but in the consequential decisions of life, they don't provide for strong arguments.
This would account for another aspect of his famous conversion which I've noticed from the outset. There is no proportional recruiting effort. If indeed Catholicism is so bad and Orthodoxy so good then he should be trying to pull good people that way. But I think this ignores the particularity and individualistic nature of Dreher's conversion. This choice of Orthodoxy, he always seems to emphasize, was tailor made for him, reinforced by many and diverse subjective experiences including even his own dreams which, we all know, men never lie about except in pick-up lines.
Before I converted to Catholicism in the early nineties, I considered Eastern Orthodoxy. I even read Peter Gillquist's book Becoming Orthodox about a group of Evangelical Protestants at a college campus who all joined the Orthodox Church after studying the ancient liturgy. At the time I remember thinking that it was well-written and very convincing about the liturgy and the sacraments, but there was really no substantive reason why their conclusion couldn't have been to all become Roman Catholic. The year after I converted I remember reading the late Father Ray Ryland's article Evangelicals Who Journey East in the magazine This Rock. In this article, Ryland exposes the fact that at many points along during the journey of these Evangelicals, there was a sub- or semi-conscious desire on the part of the members of the group to steer away from considering the Roman Church. This desire was what drove the decision, not objective inquiry, and it made for an easier way forward for the group that avoided the more rigorous stances taken by the Catholic Church which we have before noted. Ryland demonstrates how they even borrowed arguments from protestantism in order to bolster their newly found Eastern Orthodox belief system.
So this is my conclusion. I believe that in the same way as those Evangelicals under Gillquist had a predisposition to avoid Roman conclusions, Rod Dreher as a Catholic had a desire to get out of the church once the going got tough, and the abuse scandal presented the opening he'd been longing for. He breathed a sigh of relief after leaving with seeming integrity, but, as Father Ryland opined, the "breath was not deep." The lack of depth has proved itself ever since through the ever-declining force of his words in his ever-changing narratives.
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* - I realize that he discounts these arguments as determinative by stating "[T]hey were far from a slam-dunk, at least with me.... ...I was highly aware that my own mental and emotional state was inflamed by anger and distrust, such that I was not sure to what extent my deliberations could be trusted." But the fact is that he did leave the Catholic Church and he did become Eastern Orthodox. So it is impossible to conclude that he was not convinced to become Orthodox because that church professes the correct ecclesiology—unless you hold to an opinion that Rod Dreher joined the Orthodox church merely on a pretense. I choose to believe the former; it is the more charitable course. Yet the will is supposed to allow itself to be informed by the intellect. It is not supposed to ignore it.
Chiefly because of the many different and contradictory verities always in stock in Rod's big box House O' Truths, while I find his work endlessly redolent with flavor notes of both Christianity and conservatism I've concluded he's mostly reliable as a guide to Rod Dreher. Mostly.
ReplyDeleteRecently I came across this interview which I can't recall haven't seen before. It's worth a read, here's an excerpt:
ReplyDeleteAndrea Useem: As an opinion journalist, you make your private life public. Do you have any regrets about that?
Dreher: Yes, I do. Truman Capote was one of my early influences and favorite writers of journalism. But Capote ruined himself in the ‘70s when he wrote a short story for Esquire that was a thinly veiled account of high-society Manhattan gossip.... So many times, I’ll put something on my blog, and my wife will say, “I wish you hadn’t done that.” I’ve gotten better about checking with people first, or even saying, “Maybe I just shouldn’t post this at all.” But as writers, we tend to think everything is material. Just recently, I was my family down in Louisiana, and I noticed a couple of times, my mom or sister would say, “Now, don’t blog this!” I was embarrassed because I realized maybe they had seen things on the blog they didn’t want public. As writers, we have to realize that we may choose to make our own lives public, but we don’t have the moral right to do that with those who are close to us. For a writer like me, where my family is such a big part of what I write about, I’m constantly having to negotiate those lines. One thing I have learned is I am never going to put any photos of my children on my blog. I’ve done that before, but right now the police are investigating someone who has been harassing my family with a malicious prank, and they brought my wife’s name into it. It’s unnerving to me because there are some crazy people in the world, and when you put information out there in public about your life and your family’s life, you don’t have control over what people do with it. My wife shouldn’t have to suffer because people hate my opinions.
Useem: How do you maintain your inner, religious life, when it is also fodder for your public life?
Dreher: My wife says to me, “You have no unblogged thoughts.” That’s not entirely true, but she has a point. But I work in the mainstream media, where there aren’t a lot of religious people, and as a man of faith, I like to see mainstream figures talk about their faith in a real way. I have blogged about supernatural things that have happened to me, because I know they happen to others too, but others are afraid to talk about them because they’re afraid people will laugh at them. I want to show people you can work in the mainstream media and be a person of faith, whatever your faith is, and not have to be ashamed of it. If that means I get a certain amount of ridicule, well, so be it. I’ve developed a really tough skin over the years.... At the same time, as I learned from reporting on the Catholic scandal, I have to be careful and not get carried away. In my passion for making things public, I leave myself open to attack, spiritual and otherwise, that could end up compromising my faith.
Hilarious, esp. WRT posting family member's pictures online. This was obviously years ago before he was so desperate for hits. He also attempts to explain why he doesn't criticize his new church the way he still criticizes the Catholic church.
In my passion for making things public, I leave myself open to attack, spiritual and otherwise, that could end up compromising my faith.
DeleteCan someone explain what this could even mean?
'Compromising his faith'?
Frankly, this sounds to me like a junior high student in dread of the psychological crisis which would come crashing down if the crowd concluded he was wearing the wrong jeans.
Bingo, bingo, bingo.
DeleteThe worst example of this I've recently seen from him was his posting of an excerpt from TLWORL including a graphic description of Ruthie's death -- graphic not only in the physical sense but also in an emotional sense (i.e., it was not peaceful).
The ostensible purpose of the post was:
It is my hope that the story of Ruthie, and the story of everyone who meets their cancer with faith, hope, and love, inspires and strengthens those who are carrying that particular cross, or who one day will.
To which I say: bullshit. There is exactly nothing in the lurid description of Ruthie's death that would inspire and strengthen anyone -- it is hard to see that it would do anything but frighten.
And having myself lost someone close to cancer, I cannot imagine the hurt and distress that this description causes Ruthie's daughters. It's bad enough that it was in a book that relatively few would read, but now that description is posted on the Internet for all to see. All for a couple of extra clicks.
P.S. I am intentionally not posting the link to the piece, so as not to add to the click-count. OTOH, it is worth reading just to see the depth to which Dreher sinks. So I'll just say that the post is from September 15, 2014, at 3:58 pm, on the TAC website.
Bullshit strikes me as the mot juste. :p
DeleteBTW--I shared this post on Facebook.
To which I say: bullshit. There is exactly nothing in the lurid description of Ruthie's death that would inspire and strengthen anyone -- it is hard to see that it would do anything but frighten.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is as he said. Everything's material. It's not going to frighten too many people past a certain age. I could tell you worse stories.
And having myself lost someone close to cancer, I cannot imagine the hurt and distress that this description causes Ruthie's daughters. It's bad enough that it was in a book that relatively few would read, but now that description is posted on the Internet for all to see. All for a couple of extra clicks.
ReplyDeleteDomestic politics are complicated in that family. Evidently his father and oldest niece are forgiving about the TMI. His brother-in-law and younger nieces, not so much.
Rod Dreher as a Catholic had a desire to get out of the church once the going got tough, and the abuse scandal presented the opening he'd been longing for.
ReplyDeleteUh, no. I think Rod's problems with the Church were derived from the abuse scandal. And that I could appreciate, up to a point, bar that those of us reading his commentary between 2001 and 2007 might have remarked on the excessively emotional, factually sloppy, and self-centered character of it all. Much of this was pointed out at the time by Gerard Serafin, among others, but Dreher was not in a mood to listen to anyone.
Wasn't there some episode where Dreher called that Gerard guy a queen and a child-molester or something?
DeleteSerafin was the nom de cyber of Fr. Gerald Bugge, a priest of the Archdiocese of Baltimore ordained in 1969 and laicised in 1987. He'd requested dismissal to convert to Orthodoxy, then returned the the Church about five or six years later.
DeleteSerafin did have a problem with homosexuality (to a greater or lesser degree and how often I do not know) and had an encounter with a 17 year old hustler in 1985 that he'd picked up hitchhiking. Through a sequence of events I cannot recall, he was collared by local police and taken down to the station with the hustler. The police elected to settle it with a warning to both and no paperwork was prepared for criminal charges, but the Archdiocese was informed, and his faculties were removed for a time. They were restored about a year and a half later, shortly before he applied to be laicised. When Cdl. Keeler issued the list of priests 'credibly accused' of 'sexual abuse', Fr. Gerald Bugge's name was made public for all this. This was gold for Dreher, because Serafin had been active on Open Book pointing out the various logical fallacies and lacunae in Dreher's discussions of cases. Dreher doesn't care for embarrassment, and the amiable needling from the proprietor of the Praise of Glory site and directory of Catholic blogs was getting under his skin.
Uh, no. I think Rod's problems with the Church were derived from the abuse scandal.
DeleteIf that's so, though, why isn't he similarly bothered by sex abuse and related cover-ups in his current communion? Several people have informed me (on very good authority) that clergy sex abuse is a huge stinkin' problem within Orthodoxy; that it escapes public notice only because most Americans are blissfully unaware that Orthodoxy even exists; that Orthodox authorities are as transparent as mud; and that the Orthodox Lavender Mafia makes ours look like Amateur Hour. I would bet my next paycheck that Rod is well aware of all of this, yet he seldom mentions it and consistently makes really lame excuses for not caring about it.
This mystifies me, frankly. If sex-abuse scandals have such a damaging effect on his faith and psyche, then shouldn't that be the case across the board? After all, abuse is abuse, no matter what the context. It doesn't cease to be abuse if it's perpetrated outside the Catholic Church!
Similarly, victims are victims, whether the perp wears a Roman collar or a foot-long beard. Trauma is trauma, whether it's experienced within the Catholic Church, the Orthodox churches, or the Two-Sweed-in-the-Spirit Primitive Baptist Church.
So, if Rod gets so exercised by abuse scandals that he decamps from the church he happens to be a member of at the moment...then why doesn't he now decamp from the similarly afflicted Orthodox Church? Why, au contraire, does he excuse, defend, justify, and enable some of the Orthodox leaders associated with sex-abuse cover-ups (former Met. Jonah, the infamous "DC Nuns," the late Apb. Dmitri, et al.)?
Why the double standard? If sex-abuse scandals matter to him so much...then why the double standard? Why is the same sort of abuse so much worse when the perp is Catholic (and so much more excusable when the perp is Orthodox)?
I don't get it. I really don't.
Art Deco: "I think Rod's problems with the Church were derived from the abuse scandal."
DeleteI certainly think that Dreher's perception of how the Catholic scandals reflected on his own association with the Catholic Church fed into his problems.
Hah! So it was kind of an image thing?
DeleteNot a problem now that he's Orthodox. Despite the occasional local reporting re Blanco,Texas, or Astoria, NY, the Orthodox do a darned good job of sweeping their issues under the rug. No publicity = no public scandal = no embarrassment for Rod. Hence no professional repercussions.
Thank you, Pauli. I think I finally understand.
So much for that overriding concern for the victims.
Diane's description of the facts is unassailable. That really leaves us with only a few ways to look at why Rod is using the Catholic Church scandals as cover for his real reason for leaving Catholicism, whatever it might be.
DeleteOne, the most charitable is that something else, possibly the strict rules on birth control (which he's already admitted he disagrees with) is the real reason, and the scandals became his cover for himself, a way to lie to himself about his divorce from the faith.
Another, my own and rather not so charitable, is that a person as vested with self-consciousness and critical thinking as Rod has consistently demonstrated himself to be can scarcely be doing anything but consciously and deliberately lying publicly while piously playing his readers for the chumps he personally regards them as. Someone who has built his entire public persona around being the holier-than-thou child in class who perfectly obeys every one of the teacher's rules as Rod has done simply cannot fudge: he must be seen to break completely with a religion that doesn't conform to his personal inclinations regarding birth controil or whatever.
And a hybrid way. Having decided to cut his ties with Catholicism for whichever way above you feel most comfortable with, Rod subsequently and immediately found himself in a corner of his own making, with no way out. At the time of irrevocably, that is, publicly, having left the Church, Rod may not have known all that much about the Orthodox scandals. But at that point, where coulf he go? Become a Unitarian? All his stock was vested in ancient authenticity; he had two Christian options; and he'd just rejected one. Me, I tend to view this last as being hoist by his own personal Moralistic Therapeutic petard, and the rich veins of tragic irony running through that entire paint-encroaching corner goes along way toward explaining his increasingly squirrelly psychological behavior since.
The latest example: who does he really think will buy his Dante book, and why? A silent majority of similar Rods now invisibly salted out around the globe but waiting for him to call them forth with his new salvation?
Cannot say with any assurance the comparative prevalence of pederastic behavior in various denominations (or the public school system). I never have prepared a bibliography on the question and it seems to me it would be a difficult question to research. My antecedent guess would be that it's less common in the eastern Churches for a number of reasons.
ReplyDeleteAny such activity within Orthodoxy would be less obtrusive in the media; the religious corporations are smaller and they're off the radar screens of the newspapers. As has been remarked, Dreher is a man abnormally driven by his own roiling emotions in his public presentation. We all have them, but you sit down and parse out an issue for an article or a post and much of that dissipates as you develop an argument. In his case, that dissipation often does not happen. Why the double standard? It is just not hitting his gut the same way, or generating a similar quantum of shame.
I'm not sure Dreher's ever quite gotten over being embarrassed by his energetic and athletic sister or being kicked around by the toughs in junior high school. There's a bully's little pal aspect of his public presentation and a posing for effect. For a while, he fancied he was 'on Fr. Neuhaus' team' and then for a while he was Daniel Larison's bitch. He wants you to know he's not one of those vulgar 'movement conservatives' (this last bit is about what the alt-right cranks have in common).
I've seen no evidence he was ill at ease in the Church prior to 2002. I suspect he'd have left earlier than he did, but he and his wife are in the three legged race together. (He did write in public of how irritated Mrs. Dreher was with him at various points). He left when she was ready to go.
My antecedent guess would be that it's less common in the eastern Churches for a number of reasons.
DeleteWell, there actually has been considerable research into that whole question. According to the studies I've seen online, the percentage of clergy sex abuse is roughly the same across all communions. Percentage, not raw numbers, of course: You can't compare a communion of 10,000, say, with one that has 60 million members in America alone.
Moreover, the Catholic percentage has recently dropped precipitously. Not quite zero yet, alas, but there are very, very few recent cases. Even evangelical abuse-fighter Boz Tchividian (sp?) admits that the abuse-and-coverup problem is currently worse in certain fundagelical circles than in the Catholic Church.
Meanwhile, if my friends (ex-Orthodox) are to be believed, the problem is far more widespread within Orthodoxy than most Online Orthodox would have you believe.
Note the "online" part. In my experience, Real Life [cradle] Orthodox are much more salt of the earth, much more candid, much more secure in their identity (so they don't feel the urge to make excuses or minimize problems). But the online big mouths (mostly converts) are another story. Their whole attitude is: "Our shit don't stink, but yours does." So naturally they downplay or deny problems. They are too busy pointing fingers at other communions to pay much heed to their own issues. Rod epitomizes this syndrome, IMHO, but he's not alone.
Speaking of all this...just last night I read a report at Pokrov.org (which follows Orthodox sex-abuse cases) about a priest-perp who's recently been busted. It seems this perp was already a registered sex offender with a RECORD -- yet no one in the hierarchy thought to inform his new parish of this, and the result was that more boys were molested. If his happened *nowadays* in the Catholic Church, would we ever hear the end of it? Rod would be all over it like a bedspread. So would the media -- and rightly so.
Please don't assume that, because Stuff doesn't get widespread publicity, this means it doesn't happen. It happens. More often than you might imagine. (And yes, public schools do have a worse record than churches. Families have the worst record of all, from what I hear.)
Re "ill at ease before 2002": I dunno; I had never even heard of the guy before 2002. But I've heard that he was highly critical of Novus Ordo Big Box parishes way back when -- which is why he attended a Maronite parish when he lived in New York and a Latin N.O. parish during part of his time in Dallas. But it sounds as if you know a lot more about him than I do. (I try to avoid his blogs and such as much as possible.) So, you would know better than I when his disaffection began.
I also prefer Eastern-rite parishes, though I prefer the Byzantine-rite parishes to the Maronite. Lots of loyal Catholics cannot tolerate the Novus Ordo, whether it's in a big box or in a conventional parish (thought the music is the worst part of it, and that's a detachable component). It is true that those most concerned with liturgical questions do not tend to be exhibitionistic in their complaints about sexual scandals because they were alienated from the hierarchy to begin with; Dale Vree was a partial exception, but his writings on the sex stuff were fairly measured compared to Dreher, bar his antic remarks contra anyone who would take some modest exception to Michael Rose.
DeleteI'd seen his column in the New York Post prior to 2002 and also his writings in Touchstone and National Review around that time. Again, very little complaint or concern about any matter other than the misbehavior of clerics which bothers a wide swath of people who did not have any of his signature dispositions.
As for the comparative prevalence of x, y, and z, I'd be very careful with this sort of thing and try to draw together a mess of relevant research. Sociological studies vary wildly in their methodology and it's difficult for a layman to discern quality. They also differ in their conclusions. Also, as Phillip Jenkins has pointed out, different denominations have different authority structures and different archiving and communication practices. Things can go under the radar among baptists more readily than in the Church. The rather scattered reality of Orthodoxy - may inhibit tracking and what not.
The rather scattered reality of Orthodoxy - may inhibit tracking and what not.
DeleteThat's a valid point. One friend told me that the GOA is basically congregational -- something I'd never realized. So, yes, that might explain why a convicted sex offender might slip through the cracks.
But OTOH -- how hard is it to do a background check? There are public lists of convicted offenders, forsooth. Tracking a serial predator who has eluded authorities may be nigh impossible. But a convicted offender? That's not rocket surgery. If a mom-&-pop business can run a routine background check on a job applicant, why can't a diocese or parish?
Another elated example: Southern Baptists are congregationalists, of course, but the SBC has a central organization. A few years ago, said central org refused to release a list of Baptist clergy sex offenders. There was a great hue and cry over this among Southern Baptist abuse victims and advocates. I don't know whether the Convention has since released those names. You'll find updates at stopbaptistpredators.org
More recently, the Neo-Calvinist crowd has come under fire: Certain Young, Restless and Reformed celebrity megachurch pastors have apparently systematically covered up sex abuse; the brother-in-law of one such celeb pastor admitted this under oath in a recent court case.
So, yes, even with a less hierarchical, more decentralized polity, deliberate cover-ups happen. Who knows how many of these cover-ups are successful? After all, if they're successful, we don't hear about them!
I'm not willing to give these other communions as much slack as you are, methinks. For one thing, they certainly got on their high horses and reamed us with both barrels back when our Scandal was exploding. Their already intense anti-Catholicism increased exponentially. And now it turns out they have the same issues, if not more so. I probably should be a good Christian and resist the temptation to indulge in schadenfreude and told-you-so-ism. But nah. :D
Moreover (much more important): It is about the victims. And victims are victims, no matter who the perps are or what the perps' religious affiliation may be.
Anyway, Jenkins is my main (though not only) source for my contention that the percentage of clerical sex abusers is roughly the same across the board. I don't know a lot about his methodologies, but I would hazard a guess that they are fairly well respected...?
For one thing, they certainly got on their high horses and reamed us with both barrels back when our Scandal was exploding. Their already intense anti-Catholicism increased exponentially
DeleteI do not recall that. I encounter a great many throw away lines about the Church, but as far as I can tell they're all from secular types. I've never encountered 'anti-Catholicism' from rank-and-file evangelicals in any setting. I have seen it in spades from board-of-Planned-Parenthood types (Episcopalians, mostly). As far as public figures go, I think John Hagee and Jimmy Swaggart could be vitriolic. Swaggart was disgraced nearly a generation ago and I'd never have heard of Hagee if some Democratic politico had not tried to make an issue of his support of John McCain.
Well, all I can say is...you've lived a charmed life. LOL!
DeleteYes, the secular left is one major source of rabid Anti-Catholicism. But fundagelicalism is another. We could exchange dueling anecdotes, but cui bono?
I take it you do not live in the Bible Belt? Let's just say that that alters one's perspective.
And I say this as someone who feels a deep affinity for her evangelical brethren. But let's just say the feeling is not always returned.
I will concede that this is slowly changing. But old bigotries did hard down here.